John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words

Spoken to
audience

After the Last Supper, Jesus prays. He just said that the Divine gave him his followers.

KJV

John 17:8  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

NIV

John 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

LISTENERS HEARD

Because the remarks that you gave me, I have given to them. And they themselves got them and they Ameni learned to know because I/they started out from beside you. And they trust because you yourself sent me out.

MY TAKE

We are all sent out from the Divine so we can learn to understand Jesus's words.

GREEK ORDER

ὅτι         τὰ   ῥήματα      ἔδωκάς    μοι   δέδωκα        αὐτοῖς,
Because the remarks that  you gave me, I have given to them

καὶ αὐτοὶ ἔλαβον καὶ   ἔγνωσαν                   ἀληθῶς
and they   got      and  they learned to know truly

ὅτι         παρὰ            σοῦ   ἐξῆλθον,
because from beside you,   I/they started out.

καὶ    ἐπίστευσαν ὅτι        σύ                  με   ἀπέστειλας.
And they trust     because you yourself  me sent out.

LOST IN TRANSLATION

There are two verbs here, translated as "received/accepted" and "came out/came" that could be either the third-person or first-person,. Jesus makes the first one clear by using the pronoun "they" before it. However, the second one has both meanings, "I started out from you" and "they started out from you." So the word meaning "came out" and started out" refers to both Jesus and his followers. This idea that Jesus started out for the Father is consistent with many of Jesus's verses, but the idea that they are also from the Father is consistent with the previous verse, which used the same "from you" phrase in Greek.  That word is at the end of a clause, making it a punchline.

The "received/accepted" means "got" both in the sense of "receive," "take," and "understand." This fits with the "know" that is "learned to know."  In the final section, the word "I/they came out" is balanced against the final word, "sent out." This last phrase, however, with its "me" may shift the meaning of the "I/they" to "I."

# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES
10
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "words" is not the common word usually translated as "words."
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "have" before "received"  indicates the past perfect tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future).
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "that" is not the common word usually translated as "that."
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "have" before "known" indicates the past perfect tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future).
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "that" is not the common word usually translated as "that."
  • MM -- Many Meanings -- This "came" could means "I came" or "they came."
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "have" before "believed" indicates the past perfect tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future).
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "believe" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
  • MW -- Missing Word  -- The pronoun repeats the information in the verb so it should be repeated in English like "you yourself."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "send" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
# NIV TRANSLATION ISSUES
13
  • WT --Wrong Tense - The English verb "gave" is the present tense, but Greek is in the past perfect, a completed action, "have given."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "words" is not the common word usually translated as "words."
  • MW --Missing Word -- The word "which" is not shown in the English translation.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "and" is not shown in the English translation.
  • IW - Inserted Word -- The word "with" doesn't exist in the source.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  The "certainty" is not a noun but an adverb, "truly."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "came" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
  • MM -- Many Meanings -- This "came" could means "I came" or "they came."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "that" is not the common word usually translated as "that."
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "believe" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "that" is not the common word usually translated as "that."
  • MW -- Missing Word  -- The pronoun repeats the information in the verb so it should be repeated in English like "you yourself."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "send" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
EACH WORD of KJV

For -- The word translated as "that" introduces a statement of fact or cause, "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore."

I -- This is from the first-person, singular form of the verb.

have -- This helping verb "have" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past.

given -- The verb translated as "given" means "to give," "to grant," "to hand over," "appoint," "establish," and "to describe." It is almost always translated as some form of "give."

unto -- This word "to" comes from the dative case of the following word that requires the addition of a preposition in English. The most common is a "to" for the English indirect object

them -- The word translated as "them" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English. It is a plural indirect object.

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more.  

words -- (CW) The Greek word translated as "words" is not the common word meaning "idea" that is mistranslated as "words" in the Bible. Nor is it the Greek word for "words." It is another word that specifically means "what is spoken." This is the root word for the English word "remarks" and "remarks" that captures this concept well.

which -- The word translated as "which" is a demonstrative pronoun ("this" "that"), but it often acts as a pronoun "which," "what," "who," "whosoever," "where," "for which reason," and many similar meanings.

thou -- This is from the second-person, singular form of the verb.

gavest -- The verb translated as "gave" means "to give," "to grant," "to hand over," "appoint," "establish," and "to describe." It is almost always translated as some form of "give."

me -- The "me" is in the indirect object form of the first-person pronoun, so usually "to me,""for me," and "by me."

and -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

they - The word translated as "they" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English. It is a plural subject. It is used because the following verb could be either the third-person or the first person.

have -- (WT) This helping verb "have" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past. This is not the tense of the verb here.

received .-- The word translated as "received" primarily means "take." However, it means "receive" in the same sense that we use "get" to mean "receive" and has many different uses as we use "get" in English. Among these are the ideas of "understanding" and "possessing." The form could either means "they get" or "I get," but the pronoun before clarifies it.

them, -- This English objective pronoun is added and not in the Greek source.   In Greek, pronoun objects are not repeated after each verb because they are implied by their first occurrence.

and -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

have -- (WT) This helping verb "have" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past. This is not the tense of the verb here.

known -- "Known" is a verb that means "to know," "to recognize," "make known," "to know carnally," and "to learn." The idea of "realize" seems to capture most senses of this word better than "know," which is the meaning of "have seen."

surely --"Surely" is an adverb that means "actually," "really," "truly," and "obviously." It is from the adjective meaning "unconcealed" that is usually translated as "true." It is not commonly used by Jesus in Matthew and Mark. Luke used it to replace the Aramaic word amen ("truly"). "Truly" works best because the root of this word is the same as "truth."

that --  (CW) The word translated as "that" introduces a statement of fact or cause, "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore." It is translated as "for" at the beginning of the sentence. It is not the word usually translated as "that."

I -- This is from the first-person, singular form of the verb.

came out  --  (MM) The word translated as "came out " means literally "to go or come out," but it has a secondary meaning of "making something come true." In some verses, its sense is "started out" from the primary meaning of its root. The form could either mean "I came out" or "they came out."

from -- The Greek preposition translated as "of" has many meanings, many of which depend on the case of its object. With the genitive, the sense is motion, "from the side of," "from beside," and generally "from."

thee.  -- The word translated as "thee" is the genitive form of the singular, second-person pronoun, which is most commonly the possessive form. As a genitive object of a preposition, as here, it means movement away from something or a position away from something else.

and -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

they -- This is from the third-person, plural form of the verb.

have -- (WT) This helping verb "have" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past. This is not the tense of the verb here.

believed   -- (CW) The Greek word translated as "believe" does not apply to religious belief as much but trusting or relying upon other people, especially their words. Jesus usually uses it in contexts, such as the one here, that apply to trusting words.

that --  (CW) The word translated as "that" introduces a statement of fact or cause, "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore." It is translated as "for" at the beginning  of the sentence.

thou -- The  "you" here in the second-person pronoun in form of a singular subject. Since, as the subject of the sentence, it is part of the verb, its explicit use repeats the idea of who is speaking, "you." Saying "you yourself" captures this feeling in English.

missing "yourself" -- (MW)  The subjective pronoun repeats the information in the verb so it should be repeated in English like "you yourself."

didst -- This English helping verb is used to create questions, commands, negative statements, and smooth word flow in translation from Greek

send -- (CW) The "send" here is a word that means "to send off" and "dispatch." It is the source of our word "apostle." It is not the simple word, "send."

me. -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition. As the object of a preposition, an accusative object indicates movement towards something or a position reached as a result of that movement.

EACH WORD of NIV

For -- The word translated as "that" introduces a statement of fact or cause, "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore."

I -- This is from the first-person, singular form of the verb.

gave -- (WT)  The verb translated as "gave" means "to give," "to grant," "to hand over," "appoint," "establish," and "to describe." It is almost always translated as some form of "give."

them  -- The word translated as "them" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English. It is a plural indirect object.

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more.  

words -- (CW) The Greek word translated as "words" is not the common word meaning "idea" that is mistranslated as "words" in the Bible. Nor is it the Greek word for "words." It is another word that specifically means "what is spoken." This is the root word for the English word "remarks" and "remarks" that captures this concept well.

missing "which"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  "which" is a demonstrative pronoun ("this" "that"), but it often acts as a pronoun "which," "what," "who," "whosoever," "where," "for which reason," and many similar meanings.

you -- This is from the second-person, singular form of the verb.

gave -- The verb translated as "gave" means "to give," "to grant," "to hand over," "appoint," "establish," and "to describe." It is almost always translated as some form of "give."

me -- The "me" is in the indirect object form of the first-person pronoun, so usually "to me,""for me," and "by me."

and  -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

they - The word translated as "they" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English. It is a plural subject. It is used because the following verb could be either the third-person or the first person.

accepted .-- The word translated as "accepted" primarily means "take." However, it means "receive" in the same sense that we use "get" to mean "receive" and has many different uses as we use "get" in English. Among these are the ideas of "understanding" and "possessing." In the middle voice, has a much stronger sense of "take," that is, "get for himself."

them. -- This English objective pronoun is added and not in the Greek source.   In Greek, pronoun objects are not repeated after each verb because they are implied by their first occurrence.

missing "and"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

They -- This is from the third-person, plural form of the verb.

knew -- "Knew" is a verb that means "to know," "to recognize," "make known," "to know carnally," and "to learn." The idea of "realize" seems to capture most senses of this word better than "know," which is the meaning of "have seen."

with -- (IW) There is nothing that can be translated as "with" in the Greek source

certainty -- (WF) "Certainty" is an adverb that means "actually," "really," "truly," and "obviously." It is from the adjective meaning "unconcealed" that is usually translated as "true." It is not commonly used by Jesus in Matthew and Mark. Luke used it to replace the Aramaic word amen ("truly"). "Truly" works best because the root of this word is the same as "truth." This is an adverb not a noun.

that --  (CW) The word translated as "that" introduces a statement of fact or cause, "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore." It is translated as "for" at the beginning  of the sentence.

I -- This is from the first-person, singular form of the verb.

came -- (CW, MM) The word translated as "came out " means literally "to go or come out," but it has a secondary meaning of "making something come true." In some verses, its sense is "started out" from the primary meaning of its root. The form could either mean "I came out" or "they came out." This is not the root word meaning "came" or "start."

from -- The Greek preposition translated as "of" has many meanings, many of which depend on the case of its object. With the genitive, the sense is motion, "from the side of," "from beside," and generally "from."

you.  -- The word translated as "you" is the genitive form of the singular, second-person pronoun, which is most commonly the possessive form. As a genitive object of a preposition, as here, it means movement away from something or a position away from something else.

and  -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

they -- This is from the third-person, plural form of the verb.

believed  -- (CW) The Greek word translated as "believe" does not apply to religious belief as much but trusting or relying upon other people, especially their words. Jesus usually uses it in contexts, such as the one here, that apply to trusting words.

that --  (CW) The word translated as "that" introduces a statement of fact or cause, "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore." It is translated as "for" at the beginning  of the sentence.

you -- The  "you" here in the second-person pronoun in form of a singular subject. Since, as the subject of the sentence, it is part of the verb, its explicit use repeats the idea of who is speaking, "you." Saying "you yourself" captures this feeling in English.

missing "yourself" -- (MW)  The subjective pronoun repeats the information in the verb so it should be repeated in English like "you yourself."

sent -- (CW) The "send" here is a word that means "to send off" and "dispatch." It is the source of our word "apostle." It is not the simple word, "send", but like the "came out" means "sent out."

me. -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition. As the object of a preposition, an accusative object indicates movement towards something or a position reached as a result of that movement.

COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV

ὅτι [332 verses](adv/conj) "For" is hoti, which introduces a statement of fact "with regard to the fact that," "seeing that," and acts as a causal adverb meaning "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore."

τὰ [821 verses](article pl neut acc)  "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the"). 

ῥήματα [10 verses](noun pl neut acc) "Words" is rhema, which means "that which is spoken," "word," "saying," "word for word," "subject of speech," and "matter." This is not the word usually mistranslated as "word," which is logos that means "logic," "idea," or "message."

[294 verses](pron pl neut acc ) "That" is hos, which means "this," "that," "he," "she," "which," "what," "who," "whosoever," "where," "for which reason," and many similar meanings. -- The word translated as "who" is a demonstrative pronoun ("this" "that"), but it often acts as a pronoun "which," "what," "who," "whosoever," "where," "for which reason," and many similar meanings.

ἔδωκάς [147 verses](2nd sg aor ind act) "You gave" is didomi, which means "to give," "to grant," "to hand over," "appoint," "establish," and "to describe."

μοί, [96 verses](pron 1st sg masc/fem dat) "Me" is moi (emoi) , which can be the object of some prepositions and as the object of a verb means "to me" "for me," and "by me."

δέδωκα [147 verses](verb 1st sg perf ind act) "I have given" is didomi, which means "to give," "to grant," "to hand over," "appoint," "establish," and "to describe."

αὐτοῖς, [720 verses](adj pl masc gen) "Them" (adj pl masc dat)  is autos, which means "the same," and the reflexive pronouns, "myself," "yourself," "himself," "herself," "itself," or the oblique case of the pronouns, "him," "her," and "it." In the plural, "they," "them," and "their." It also means "one's true self," that is, "the soul" as opposed to the body and "of one's own accord." In the adverbial form, it  means "just here" or "exactly there." --

καὶ [1089 verses](conj/adv) "And" is kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "also." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even," "also," and "just."

αὐτοὶ [720 verses](adj pl masc nom) "Them" (adj pl masc dat)  is autos, which means "the same," and the reflexive pronouns, "myself," "yourself," "himself," "herself," "itself," or the oblique case of the pronouns, "him," "her," and "it." In the plural, "they," "them," and "their." It also means "one's true self," that is, "the soul" as opposed to the body and "of one's own accord." In the adverbial form, it  means "just here" or "exactly there."

ἔλαβον [54 verse](verb 3rd pl aor ind act) "Received/Accepted" is lambano means to "take," "take hold of," "grasp," "seize," "catch," "overtake," "find out," "detect," "take as,"  in Logic, "assume," "take for granted," "understand," "undertake," "take in," "hold," "get," "receive [things]," "receive hospitably," "receive in marriage," "receive as produce," "profit," "admit," "initiate," "take hold of," "lay hold on," "seize and keep hold of," "obtain possession of," "lay hands upon," "find fault with," "censure," "to apprehend with the senses," and "to take hold of." It is also specifically used to mean "seized with emotion." In the middle voice, has a much stronger sense of "take," that is, "get for himself." What is taken is in the genitive

καὶ [1089 verses](conj/adv) "And" is kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "also." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even," "also," and "just."

ἔγνωσαν :[62 verses] (verb 3rd pl aor ind act)  "They know," is ginosko which means "to learn to know," "to know by reflection or observation," and "to perceive."

ἀληθῶς [8 verses](adv) "Surely" is alethos, an adverb that means "actually," "really," "truly," and "obviously." It is from the adjective meaning "unconcealed" that is usually translated as "true."   

ὅτι [332 verses](adv/conj) "That" is hoti, which introduces a statement of fact "with regard to the fact that," "seeing that," and acts as a causal adverb meaning "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore."

παρὰ  [45 verses](prep) "With" is para, has many meanings, which depend on the case of its object and the sense of the verb.With the genitive, the sense is always motion, "from the side of," "from beside," "issuing from", and generally "from." With the dative, the sense is always static, "by the side of," "near," "in the presence of," and "before." With the accusative, its has a number of specialized meanings depending on the character of the verb, with coming/going "near," "beside," with placing "side-by-side," as a metaphor, "like" or "as a parody of, of comparison, "compared with" and many more including "along", "past", "beyond", "parallel (geometry)", "precisely at the moment of (time)," and "throughout (time)."

σου” [144 verses](pron 2nd sg gen) "Thy" is sou is the genitive form of the second-person, singular pronoun that means "of you" and "your."

ἐξῆλθον, [54 verses](verb 1st sg aor ind act OR verb 3rd pl aor ind act) "Came out" is exerchomai, which means "to come or go out of " "to march forth," "go out on," "to stand forth," "to exceed all bounds," "to come to an end," "to go out of office," and [of dreams or prophecies] "to come true."

καὶ [1089 verses](conj/adv) "And" is kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "also." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even," "also," and "just."

ἐπίστευσαν -[69 verses](verb 3rd pl aor ind act) "They believe" is pisteuo, which means "to trust, put faith in, or rely on a person," "to believe in someone's words," "to comply," "to feel confident in a thing," and "to entrust in a thing."

ὅτι [332 verses](adv/conj) "That" is hoti, which introduces a statement of fact "with regard to the fact that," "seeing that," and acts as a causal adverb meaning "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore."

σὺ  [36  verses](pron 2nd sg nom) "Thee/you" is su , which means "you" in the second-person pronoun in form of a singular subject.

με [49 verses](pron 1st sg masc acc) "Me" is eme, which is the objective first-person, objective, singular pronoun that means  "me."

ἀπέστειλας[60 verses](verb 2nd sg aor ind act) "Send" is apostello, which means "to send off," "to send away," or "to dispatch."

Wordplay

The "received/accepted" means "got" both in the sense of "receive," "take," and "understand."

The word meaning "came out" and started out" refers to both Jesus and his followers.

The word "came out" is balanced about the final word, "sent out."

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