Mark 8:20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets

Spoken to
Apostles

In a boat, Jesus asked them why they are arguing about bread.

KJV

Mark 8:20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up?

NIV

Mark 8:20 And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?

LISTENERS HEARD

When those seven for the four thousand, how many baskets' fillers of fragments did you remove?

MY TAKE

A full basket does not equal a smaller basket of filler.

GREEK ORDER

ὅτε     τοὺς ἑπτὰ    εἰς τοὺς τετρακισχιλίους, πόσων      σφυρίδων πληρώματα     κλασμάτων   ἤρατε;
When those seven for the four thousand,      how many baskets'   fillers           of fragments     did you remove?

LOST IN TRANSLATION

There is no verb in the first phrase, the "broke" is implied by in the previous verse.

Baskets here is a small basket, not a big one as in the previous verse.  The "baskets" modifies the "filler." It is not the object of the verb. The filler is.

The Greek word translated here as "full" here is not just an adjective but a noun describing the fullness like "filler" and it is the object of the verb.

 

# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES
8
  • OS -- Outdated Source -- The Greek word translated as "and" existed in the KJV Greek source but not the source we use today.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- This is not the common word usually translated as "among."
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the/this" before "four thousand" is not shown in the English translation.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "baskets" is the same word translated as "baskets" in the previous verse.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  The "baskets" is not the object of the verb but modifies "filler."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "full" is the same word translated as "full" in the previous verse.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  The "filler" is the object of the verb not a modifier of "baskets."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- This is not the common word usually translated as "took."
# NIV TRANSLATION ISSUES
7
  • IW - Inserted Word -- The word "and" doesn't exist in the source.
  • IW - Inserted Word -- The word "I broke" doesn't exist in the source.
  • IW - Inserted Word -- The word "loaves" doesn't exist in the source.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the/this" before "four thousand" is not shown in the English translation.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "baskets" is the same word translated as "baskets" in the previous verse.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  The "baskets" is not the object of the verb but modifies "filler."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "full" is the same word translated as "full" in the previous verse.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  The "filler" is the object of the verb not a modifier of "baskets."
EACH WORD of KJV

And -- (OS) There is nothing in the Greek that can be translated as "and" in the source we use today but a conjunction did exist in the source that the KJV translators used. It was one that means "however" or "but" not an and. 

when --  "When" is an adverb that means "when", "as when", "at the time when," and "sometimes."

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article. The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this", "that", "these", "those"). See this article for more. 

seven -- This is the numeral seven.

among  -- (CW) The word translated as "among" means "into" a place, "towards" as a direction, "in regards to" a subject, and "up to" limits in time and measure. However, it also means "for a purpose," which is clearly the sense here. This is not the common word for "among."

missing "the/this"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article," the," which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," and "those"). See this article for more.

 

four thousand, -- "Four thousand" is an adjective that means "four thousand."

how many -- The adjective translated as "how many"  means "of what quantity," [in distance] "how far." [of number] how far," [of time] "how long," [of value] "how much", "how great", "how many," and "how much."

baskets -- (CW, WF) "Baskets" is from a Greek noun for a small basket, like a "nose-bag" or "nose-basket." This is a smaller basket than the one in the previous verse.

full -- (CW,  WF) "Full" is a noun that captures various ideas of filling and completing, but here, we might simply say "the filler." This is a different Greek word than the "full" of the the previous verse.

of -- This comes from the form of the following noun.  The form of this word requires that addition of extra words in English to capture its meaning.  The most common is the "of" of possession, but it can also mean "belonging to," "part of", "which is", "than" (in comparisons), or  "for", "concerning" or "about" with transitive verbs. 

fragments -- "Fragments" is a word that means "fragment" and "morsel." It is the noun form of the verb used above that means "break into pieces."

took -- (CW) "Took" is one of Jesus's favorite "multiple meaning" words. It is a verb that means "to raise up", "elevate", "to bear", "to carry off", "to take and apply to any use," and "to cause to cease." Jesus uses this verb to refer to what will happen to "the son of man," which can apply either to his being raised from the dead or lifted up on the cross.

ye -- This comes from the second-person, plural form of the verb not the use of a pronoun.

up -- This is from the prefix of the previous verb that means "up."

EACH WORD of NIV

And -- (IW) There is nothing that can be translated as "and" in the Greek source.

when --  "When" is an adverb that means "when", "as when", "at the time when," and "sometimes."

I broke -- (IW) There is nothing that can be translated as "I broke" in the Greek source.

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article. The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this", "that", "these", "those"). See this article for more. 

seven -- This is the numeral seven.

loaves  -- -- (IW) There is nothing that can be translated as "loaves" in the Greek source

for -- The word translated as "among" means "into" a place, "towards" as a direction, "in regards to" a subject, and "up to" limits in time and measure. However, it also means "for a purpose," which is clearly the sense here.

missing "the/this"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article," the," which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," and "those"). See this article for more. 

four thousand, -- "Four thousand" is an adjective that means "four thousand."

how many -- The adjective translated as "how many"  means "of what quantity," [in distance] "how far." [of number] how far," [of time] "how long," [of value] "how much", "how great", "how many," and "how much."

basket- -- (CW, WF) "Baskets" is from a Greek noun for a small basket, like a "nose-bag" or "nose-basket." This is a smaller basket than the one in the previous verse. These baskets are not the object of the verb but a description of the "filler."

-fuls  -- (CW, WP, WF) "Full" is a noun that captures various ideas of filling and completing, but here, we might simply say "the filler." This is a different Greek word than the "full" of the the previous verse. This is the object of the verb.

of -- This comes from the form of the following noun.  The form of this word requires the addition of extra words in English to capture its meaning.  The most common is the "of" of possession, but it can also mean "belonging to," "part of", "which is", "than" (in comparisons), or  "for", "concerning" or "about" with transitive verbs. 

pieces -- "Pieces" is a word that means "fragment" and "morsel." It is the noun form of the verb used above that means "break into pieces."

did -- This English helping verb is used to create questions, commands, negative statements, and smooth word flow in translation from Greek

you -- This comes from the second-person, plural form of the verb not the use of a pronoun.

pick --  "Pick" is one of Jesus's favorite "multiple meaning" words. It is a verb that means "to raise up", "elevate", "to bear", "to carry off", "to take and apply to any use," and "to cause to cease." Jesus uses this verb to refer to what will happen to "the son of man," which can apply either to his being raised from the dead or lifted up on the cross.

up -- This is from the prefix of the previous verb that means "up."

COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV

ὅτε [19 verses](adv/conj) "Then" is hote, which means "when", "as when", "at the time when," and "sometimes."

τοὺς [821 verses](article pl masc acc ) "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the"), which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one" or, in the plural, "the ones."

ἑπτὰ  [5 verses](numeral) "Seven" is from hepta which means the number seven, which was considered a mystical number.

εἰς [325 verses] (prep) "Among" is eis, which means "into (of place)," "up to (of time)", "until (of time)", "as much as (of measure or limit)", "as far as (of measure or limit)", "towards (to express relation)", "in regard to (to express relation)", "of an end or limit," and "for (of purpose or object)."

τοὺς [821 verses](article pl masc acc ) Untranslated is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").  -

τετρακισχιλίων [2 verses](adj pl masc gen) "Of the four thousand" is from tetrakischilioi, meaning "four thousand."

πόσων [19 verses] (adj pl fem gen) "How many" is from posos, which means "of what quantity," [in distance] "how far." [of number] how far," [of time] "how long," [of value] "how much", "how great", "how many," and "how much."

σφυρίδας [2 verses]( noun pl fem gen ) "Baskets" is from spyris, which is "nose-bag" or "nose-basket." This is a smaller bag than the one in the previous verse.

πληρώματα  [3 verses]( noun pl neut acc ) "Full" is pleroma, which means "that which fills", "fullness", "reserves", "mass", "complex", "filling up", "completing," and "fulfillment."

κλασμάτων [3 verses]( noun pl neut gen) "Of fragments" is klasma, which means "fragment" and "morsel."

ἤρατε [56 verses]( verb 2nd pl aor ind act ) "Took ye up" is airo, which means "to lift up", "to raise", "to raise up", "to exalt", "to lift and take away," and "to remove." In some forms, it is apaomai, which means to "pray to," or "pray for."

Possible Symbolic Meaning
Front Page Date