John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna

Spoken to
audience

After the miracle of the loaves, the topic is now bread and eternal life.

KJV

John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

NIV

John 6:49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.

 

LISTENERS HEARD

Those forefathers of yours ate in the wilderness that manna and they died away.

MY TAKE

Individuals can die off without continuing who they became.

LOST IN TRANSLATION

There is a hidden contrast here between the word translated as "bread" in the previous verse that actually means "loaf" and the meaning of the word manna, which in Greek means  "power" or "granules." The loaf is more substantial. Of course, manna also has a meaning in Hebrew as what the Israelites ate in the desert.

There is also a hidden contrast between the idea of "life" which has the sense of property and fullness with the word for "desert" which means emptiness. In Greek, the "in the desert" phrase comes right after "ate" emphasizing the place they ate.

The word translated as "dead" or "died" is the word "to die" with the addition of a prefix that means "away" so these sense is one of dying off over time.

 

# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES
5
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" before "fathers" is not shown in the English translation.
  • IW - Inserted Word -- The word "did" doesn't exist in the source.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" before "manna" is not shown in the English translation.
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "are" indicates the present tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future). Here, it is a point of time in the past.
  • WF - Wrong Form -  The "dead" is not an adjective but a verb, "they died."
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" before "ancestors" is not shown in the English translation.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" before "manna" is not shown in the English translation.
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "are" indicates the present tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future). Here, it is a point of time in the past.
  • WF - Wrong Form -  The "dead" is not an adjective but a verb, "they died."
EACH WORD of KJV

Your -- The word translated as "your" is a plural, second-person pronoun in the genitive case. This pronoun follows the noun so "of yours."

missing "the"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article, which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those"). See this article for more. 

fathers -- "Fathers" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.

did -- (IW) This English helping verb is used to create questions, commands, negative statements, and smooth word flow in translation from Greek However, adding it here is confusing only servicing to create a past tense.

eat -- The word translated as "eat" means "eat" but it also means "fret," as we say "something is eating me up," which seems to go better with the "worry" concept earlier.

missing "the"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article, which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those"). See this article for more. 

manna  - The word was used for the food provided by God to the Israelites wandering in the desert. It has a Hebrew source word, but it is also an untranslated word in Greek. The Greek word primarily means "powder."

in  -- The word translated as "in" means "in," "within," "with" (an instrument), "during" (time),  or "among"  with a dative object as the one here.  With the accusative, it means "into," "on," and "for." When referring to time, it means "during." It can mean "on," "at," or "by" in the sense of "near."

the   -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article, without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

wilderness, - "Wilderness" is from an adjective meaning "desolate," "lonely," and "solitary." It has the sense of the English phrase "the middle of nowhere."

and -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it is can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

are -- (WT) This helping verb indicates the present tense of the verb. However, the sense of the verb here is that they died at a specific point in time, not their current state.

dead. - (WF) "Dead" is a Greek verb that means "to die" and "to die off." It literally means "to die away." This is a verb, not an adjective, "they died."

EACH WORD of NIV

Your -- The word translated as "your" is a plural, second-person pronoun in the genitive case. This pronoun follows the noun so "of yours."

missing "the"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article, which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those"). See this article for more. 

ancestors -- "Ancestors " is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.

ate-- The word translated as "ate" means "eat" but it also means "fret," as we say "something is eating me up," which seems to go better with the "worry" concept earlier.

missing "the"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article, which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those"). See this article for more. 

manna  - The word was used for the food provided by God to the Israelites wandering in the desert. It has a Hebrew source word, but it is also an untranslated word in Greek. The Greek word primarily means "powder."

in  -- The word translated as "in" means "in," "within," "with" (an instrument), "during" (time),  or "among"  with a dative object as the one here.  With the accusative, it means "into," "on," and "for." When referring to time, it means "during." It can mean "on," "at," or "by" in the sense of "near."

the   -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article, without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

wilderness, - "Wilderness" is from an adjective meaning "desolate," "lonely," and "solitary." It has the sense of the English phrase "the middle of nowhere."

yet -- (WW) The Greek word translated as "yet" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it is can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

 they -- This is from the third-person, plural form of the verb.

died. "Died" is a Greek verb that means "to die" and "to die off." It literally means "to die away."

COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV

οἱ [821 verses](article pl masc nom)  Untranslated is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").

πατέρες [191 verses](noun sg masc nom) "Father" is pater, which means "father," "grandfather," "author," "parent," and "forefathers."

ὑμῶν [168 verses](pron 2nd pl gen) "Your" is humon, the plural possessive form of su the pronoun of the second person, "you."

ἔφαγον [30 verses](3rd pl aor ind act) "Did eat" is esthio, which means "to eat," "devour," "fret," "vex," and to "take in one's mouth." It is also a metaphor for decay and erosion.

ἐν [413 verses](prep) "In" is en, which means, with a dative object, "in," "on," "at," "by," "among," "within," "surrounded by," "in one's hands," "in one's power," "during,"  and "with." With the accusative, it means "into," "on," and "for." Referring to time, it means. "in the course of" or "during." 

τῇ [821 verses](article sg fem dat)  "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").

ἐρήμῳ [3 verses](adj sg fem dat) "The wilderness" is from eremos, which is an adjective (used as a noun) that means "desolate," "lonely," "solitary," "reft of," "destitute of," "bereft of," "unclaimed," "vacant," [of places] "deserted," [of people] "friendless," and "not gregarious."  -  

τὸ [821 verses](article sg neut acc)  "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").  -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article, without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

μάννα [1 verse](noun sg neut acc) "Manna" is from manna which means "powder, "morsel", "grain", "granules," or a "sweet gum like honey" typically found on the leaves of tamarisk plants. From the Hebrew word man. As a Greek noun, this word is feminine, but this word is neuter.

καὶ [1089 verses](conj/adv) "And" is kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "also." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even," "also," and "just."

ἀπέθανον: [14 verses] (3rd pl aor ind act) "Are dead" is from apothnesko, which means "to die" and "to die off." 

Wordplay

 A contrast between small grains and the large loaves. 

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