Luke 12:54 When ye see a cloud rise out of the west,

Spoken to
group

A continuation of the discussion about why they should be vigilant.

KJV

 Luke 12:54 When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

NIV

 Luke 12:54 When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does.

LISTENERS HEARD

Whenever you see a cloud rising during the sunsetting, immediately you say that a rainstorm shows up and it happens in this way. 

MY TAKE

Sometimes things happen as we expect.

GREEK ORDER

 Ὅταν       ἴδητε       νεφέλην ἀνατέλλουσαν ἐπὶ         δυσμῶνεὐθέως        λέγετε    ὅτι
Whenever you see a cloud     rising              during a sunsetting, immediately you say that

Ὄμβρος      ἔρχεται,   καὶ γίνετα       ι οὕτως:
a rainstorm shows up and it happens in this way. 

LOST IN TRANSLATION

This verse starts with contrast to get attention, a cloud "rising" with a sun "setting." To hear the punchline correctly we have to imagine a pause building suspense after a rising "and" as the setup. The punchline is an anticlimax: "It happens in this way." The translations blow the ending translating "happens" as "it" and "does." 

# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES
5

When(CW) ye see a cloud rise(CW) out(OS) of the west, straightway ye say, (MWthat) There cometh a shower; and so it is(WW)

  • CW --Confusing Word -- This is not the common word that should usually be translated as "when."
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  This is not an active verb but a participle, a verbal adjective, "rising."
  • OS -- Outdated Source -- The Greek word translated as "out" existed in the KJV Greek source but not the source we use today.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "that"  after "say" is not shown in the English translation.
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "is" should be something more like "happen."
# NIV TRANSLATION ISSUES
7

When(CW) you see a cloud rising in(CW) the west, immediately you say, (MWthat) ‘It’s going(WF) to rain(WF),’ and it does(WW) (MWso).

  • CW --Confusing Word -- This is not the common word that should usually be translated as "when."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- This is not the common word usually translated as "in."
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "that"  after "say" is not shown in the English translation.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  This "going" is not a helping verb to show the future tense but an active verb.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  This "to rain" is not an infinitive but a noun.
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "does" should be something more like "happen."
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "so"  after "does" is not shown in the English translation. 
EACH WORD of KJV

When - (CW) The Greek word translated as "when" introduces a phrase that explains a certain condition so "whenever" or "since." This is not the more common word for "when." Here, the condition is less certain to happen.

ye -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.

see -- The verb translated as "see" means "to see" but it is used like we use the word "see" to mean "to know" or "to perceive." In the past perfect tense, it means "to know," and that sense of knowing gives this word a sense of seeing and understanding. 

a -- There is no indefinite article in Greek, but when a noun doesn't have a definite article, the indefinite article can be added in English translation.

cloud - "Cloud" is from a word that means "clouds," "mist," and "fog." It is a metaphor for death.

rise -- (WF) The Greek verb translated as "rise" means "to rise," "to make rise up," "to give birth," "to gush forth [water]," "to bring forth," "to spring up [plants]," "rise [mountains]," and "to appear above the horizon [sun,moon]. This is not an active verb but a participle, a verbal adjective, "rising."

out -- -- (OS) There is nothing in the Greek that can be translated as this in the source we use today but it does exist in the source that the KJV translators used.  The word here today means "on," "over," "upon," "for,"  "against," "before," "after," "during," "by" "in the case of."

of -- This word "of"  comes from the possessive form (genitive case) of the following word that requires the addition of a preposition in English.  The most common is the "of" of possession.

the -- There is no Greek article "those" here in the source, but the noun is plural and in English, a definite article "the/this/that/theses/those" is used before plural nouns in phrases like this

west,-- The word translated as "west" means "setting," as the opposite of "rising."

straightway -- "Straightway " is  an adverb, it means "straight," "simple," "straightway," forthwith," "immediately," "directly," and "at once."

ye -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.

say,  -- The word translated as "say" is the most common word that means "to say," "to tell," and "to speak,"  but when used with an objective noun or pronoun, the sense is "say of" or "speak of."    It also has many ancillary meanings such as "to count" ("to number" or like we might say, "to recount" a story) or "to choose for yourself."

missing "that"  -- (MW) The untranslated word   "that" introduces a statement of fact or cause, "for what," "because," "since," "seeing that," "that," and "wherefore." Jesus usually uses this word to mean "because" in statements that seem like an answer to a question because of the change of context. It means "because" when answering a "why" question and "that" when explaining a "what" question. Another common word is used for "for."

There -- This is from the third-person, singular form of the verb.

cometh  -- The word translated as "come" primarily means "to start out" but Jesus usually uses it to mean "come" but not always. It indicates movement, especially its beginning, without indicating a direction toward or away from anything, so it works either as "start," "come," or "go," but it is more like our phrase "being underway." Technically, it is in the middle voice meaning the subject acts on himself. In English, this is assumed in our words "come" and "go." Our English word "show up" captures both the "start" and "come" ideas. See this article for more.

a -- There is no indefinite article in Greek, but when a noun doesn't have a definite article, the indefinite article can be added in English translation.

shower;-- The word translated as "a shower" means "storm of rain", "thunder-storm", "storm", and "shower."

and -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis, "even," "also," and "just."

so -- The word translated in KJV as "so" is in its adverbial form, so it means "in this manner," "so,
"so much," or "so excessively."

it -- This is from the third-person, singular form of the verb.

is. -- (WW) The word translated as "is" means "to become," that is, to enter into a new state. When applied to events, this word means "to happen," "to occur," or "take place." For things, it can be "to be produced." When the participle takes a predicate, the sense is "coming into" something. The form of the verb's object can indicate the time or to whom it "happens." This is not the specific meaning of the word in this situation.

EACH WORD of NIV

When - (CW) The Greek word translated as "when" introduces a phrase that explains a certain condition so "whenever" or "since." This is not the more common word for "when." Here, the condition is less certain to happen.

you -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.

see -- The verb translated as "see" means "to see" but it is used like we use the word "see" to mean "to know" or "to perceive." In the past perfect tense, it means "to know," and that sense of knowing gives this word a sense of seeing and understanding. 

a -- There is no indefinite article in Greek, but when a noun doesn't have a definite article, the indefinite article can be added in English translation.

cloud - "Cloud" is from a word that means "clouds," "mist," and "fog." It is a metaphor for death.

rising -- The Greek verb translated as "rise" means "to rise," "to make rise up," "to give birth," "to gush forth [water]," "to bring forth," "to spring up [plants]," "rise [mountains]," and "to appear above the horizon [sun,moon].

in-- (CW) The word translated as "in" means "on," "over," "upon," "for,"  "against," "before," "after," "during," "by" "in the case of." This is not the word usually translated as "in."

of -- This word "of"  comes from the possessive form (genitive case) of the following word that requires the addition of a preposition in English.  The most common is the "of" of possession.

the -- There is no Greek article "those" here in the source, but the noun is plural and in English, a definite article "the/this/that/theses/those" is used before plural nouns in phrases like this

west,-- The word translated as "west" means "setting," as the opposite of "rising."

immediately -- "Immediately " is  an adverb, it means "straight," "simple," "straightway," forthwith," "immediately," "directly," and "at once."

you -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.

say,  -- The word translated as "say" is the most common word that means "to say," "to tell," and "to speak,"  but when used with an objective noun or pronoun, the sense is "say of" or "speak of."    It also has many ancillary meanings such as "to count" ("to number" or like we might say, "to recount" a story) or "to choose for yourself."

missing "that"  -- (MW) The untranslated word   "that" introduces a statement of fact or cause, "for what," "because," "since," "seeing that," "that," and "wherefore." Jesus usually uses this word to mean "because" in statements that seem like an answer to a question because of the change of context. It means "because" when answering a "why" question and "that" when explaining a "what" question. Another common word is used for "for."

It -- This is from the third-person, singular form of the verb.

’s going-- (WF) The word translated as "’s going" primarily means "to start out" but Jesus usually uses it to mean "come" but not always. It indicates movement, especially its beginning, without indicating a direction toward or away from anything, so it works either as "start," "come," or "go," but it is more like our phrase "being underway." Technically, it is in the middle voice meaning the subject acts on himself. In English, this is assumed in our words "come" and "go." Our English word "show up" captures both the "start" and "come" ideas. See this article for more.
This "going" is not a helping verb to show the future tense but an active verb.

to rain;-- (WF) The word translated as "rain" means "storm of rain", "thunder-storm", "storm", and "shower."  This is not an infinitive but a noun.

and -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis, "even," "also," and "just."

it -- This is from the third-person, singular form of the verb.

does. -- (WW) The word translated as "does" means "to become," that is, to enter into a new state. When applied to events, this word means "to happen," "to occur," or "take place." For things, it can be "to be produced." When the participle takes a predicate, the sense is "coming into" something. The form of the verb's object can indicate the time or to whom it "happens." This is not the specific meaning of the word in this situation.

missing "so"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  "so" is in its adverbial form, so it means "in this manner," "so,
"so much," or "so excessively."

COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV

ταν [70 verses](adv/conj) "When" is from hotan, which means "whenever (as a condition)," and "since (as a cause)." -

ἴδητε  [166 verses] (verb 2nd pl pres subj act ) "Ye see" is eido which means "to see," "to examine," "to perceive," "to behold," "to know how to do," "to see with the mind's eye," and "to know."

νεφέλην[6 verses]   (noun pl fem gen) "A cloud" is from nephele, which means "clouds," "mist," and "fog."  - clouds

ἀνατέλλουσαν[5 verses]  (part sg pres act fem acc) "Rise out" is anatellô, which means "to rise," "to make rise up," "to give birth," "to gush forth [water]," "to bring forth," "to spring up [plants]," "rise [mountains]," and "to appear above the horizon [sun,moon]."

ἐπὶ [138 verses](prep) "Out of" is from epi , which means "on," "upon," "at," "by," "before," "across," "for," and "against." With a noun in the possessive, genitive, it means "upon," "on" but not necessarily of Place, "by (of persons)," "deep (with numbers)," "in the presence of," "towards," "in the time of," and "over (referring to a person of authority)." With a noun indirect object, dative, it means of place: "upon," "on," or "over," of people: "against (in a hostile sense)," regarding a situation: "towards" or "in reference to," of an accumulation: "upon," "after," "addition to," and "besides," of position: "after," "behind," "in dependence upon," and "in the power of," of time: "by," and "after," and. in a causal sense: "of the occasion or cause," "for" a person, an end, or purpose," "on condition that," and "for" (a price).  With the objective noun, an accusative, it means of place: "upon or on to a height," "up to," "as far as," "a little way," "a little," "towards," "to," in hostile sense: "against," of extension: "over," "over (a space)," of time: "for," "during," "up to" or "till," in a causal sense: "of (the object)," for (this purpose)," "as regards," "according to," and "by (this cause)." With verbs of perceiving, observing, and judging, it means "in the case of."

δυσμῶν, [3 verses]  (noun pl fem gen) "West" is dysme, which means "setting (mostly in pl.)," "the quarter of sunset," and "west."

εὐθέως [16 verses](adv)  "Immediately" is from eutheoswhich as an adverb, it means "straight," "simple," "straightway," forthwith," "immediately," "directly," and "at once."

λέγετε [264 verses](verb 2nd pl pres ind act) "I tell" is lego, which means "to recount," "to tell over," "to say," "to speak," "to teach," "to mean," "boast of," "tell of," "recite," nominate," and "command." When used with an object is has the sense of "call by name."  It has a secondary meaning "pick out," "choose for oneself," "pick up," "gather," "count," and "recount." A less common word that is spelled the same means "to lay," "to lay asleep" and "to lull asleep." This word is more about making a statement than participating in a discussion. Translating is as "stated" might distinguish it better. When two accusative objects are used, the sense is  "say of him this," or "call him this." The form Jesus uses to describe his own speaking can be either indicative, "I say/tell" or subjunctive, "I should/could say/tell."

ὅτι [332 verses](adv/conj) "for" is hoti, which introduces a statement of fact "with regard to the fact that," "seeing that," and acts as a causal adverb meaning "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore." This is the same word can be translated as both "because" and "that" in the same verse when answering two different types of questions.

Ὄμβρος [1 verse](noun sg masc nom) "A shower" is ombros, which means "storm of rain", "thunder-storm", "storm", and "shower."

ἔρχεται, [198 verses(verb 3rd sg pres ind mp) "There cometh" is  erchomai, which means "to start," "to set out," "to come," "to go," and any kind of motion. It means both "to go" on a journey and "to arrive" at a place.

καὶ [1089 verses](conj/adv) "And" is kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "also." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even," "also," and "just." In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

γίνεται  [117 verses] (verb 3rd sg pres ind mp) "It is"is ginomai, which means "to become," "to come into being," "to happen," of things "to be produced," of events "happen," (passive) "take place," "come to pass," "to be engaged in," math "to be multiplied into," "become one of," "turn into." It means changing into a new state of being. When the participle takes a predicate, the sense is "coming into" something. This verb also has a number of special meanings with different prepositions. It is the complementary opposite of the verb "to be" (eimi) which indicates existence in the same state. A genitive object indicates the time during which it "happens" or a date on which it "falls." A dative object indicates to whom it happens.

οὕτως [54 verses](adv) "So" is houtos, an adverb that means "in this way," "therefore," "so much" ("for" w/gen.), "to such an extent," "so very," "so excessively," and "that is why. With an imperative "just," "without more ado." At beginning of a story, "once upon a time."

Wordplay

It describes a "rising" in the "setting". 

parallel comparison

This verse is something of a contradiction of Matthew 16:2,  but the explanation is the Jesus was speaking to different people in different climates. The verses in Matthew 16:2 and Matthew 16:3 were meant for sailors, and Jesus words echo the old sailing adage, "red sky at morning". This verse and the following are clearly meant for people near the desert where rain is fair weather and dry heat is not. However, the parallel, especially between this verse and the "red sky" in the evening verse, is easier to see if we know that in Greek the "west" is the direction of the setting sun. The term "west" means setting. A cloud in the west during sunsetis red.

Front Page Date